photo by Bambi Guthrie
JEFF GAMMILL
What are your earliest memories of loving music? Were there family members or others who encouraged your interest in music? What were your earliest favorite songs/artists?
Like most people, I loved music from the moment I was born. I didn’t grow up in a “musical household” with parents who played any instruments, nor was I given piano lessons or anything like that. (I wish I would’ve taken piano lessons as a child, but I also know I would’ve been a bad student.) My mother did once pick out the melody of “White Christmas” on my little Casio so that I could play that, and I was extremely impressed by her. As far as earliest favorites, I was raised on the Beatles, which I will be forever grateful to my father for. I also loved the Beach Boys. “I Get Around” plays in the 1986 movie Flight of the Navigator, and that was my jam. I was also a huge Weird Al fan, ha ha.
Under what circumstances did you first pick up an instrument, and how did you learn to play? What songs or styles were you most interested in learning to play at that time?
I have a brother three years younger than me. At some point when I was roughly around twelve, he got it in his head that he wanted to learn guitar, so my parents bought him a cheap Hondo acoustic. He strummed it a little, but tired of it pretty quickly. I picked it up, even though I had never had any real desire of my own to play guitar, and I just never got tired of it. So it basically became my guitar. My dad busted out these old Beatles songbooks from the Sixties that he still had somehow, and I learned the few chords that I felt my hands could form and switch between. For people that don’t know, the Beatles changed the rock ’n’ roll game completely by throwing in all these crazy new chords. I couldn’t play them then, and I mostly still can’t. Once I had down C, F, G, E, A, and D (and a couple 7th variations), I decided I was pretty much good. I was, and am, extremely lazy and easily discouraged.
Shortly after that, I bought an electric guitar that I shared ownership of with my friend Mike (strange concept to think about now), and we learned how to play distorted power chords because Nirvana was happening. If I had been lazy with learning chords before, this was the final nail in the coffin. After discovering that I could make a power chord with two or three fingers and just move it anywhere on the neck, well, why would you ever do anything else? If Green Day could write the caliber of songs that they were writing with only power chords, then that was definitely the way to go.
When did you realize that you wanted to write songs? How did you approach meeting that goal? Were there particular songwriters you wanted to emulate or who provided specific inspiration?
For whatever reason, I was always writing songs. As soon as I could get my fingers to move back and forth between C, F, and G, I was writing “songs.” I never had a goal with it, it just felt like the thing to do. Of course anything I wrote was garbage; it was just part of the learning process. But my aforementioned friend Mike and I would mess around all the time with guitars and keyboards and record little experiments. When they had lyrics, they would be all abstract and meaningless because we were basically poorly emulating Nirvana, Pavement, and the Figgs. I also used to have two cassette tapes full of little recordings I made of my early compositions, which I just remembered I called “Flaming Squirrels,” which I would definitely die of embarrassment if I ever heard again. But yeah, even when I wasn’t good, I was prolific.
Were you in bands or did you have projects prior to forming Capitalist Kids? How did Capitalist Kids come into fruition, and what were your specific goals for the sound? The first album features cartoon artwork and iconic images of what I consider to be the "canons" of pop punk (MTX, Weasel, Queers) - was the first album an intentional effort to pay homage to this style?
I was in a pop-punk band in high school with Cap Kids drummer Dugg, called Unkle Imp. We sounded (at least the songs I wrote) a little like MxPx. That was when I became a bass player. I thought I was going to be playing guitar, but then the original guitarist came back into the band and I was forced into the role of bassist. I didn’t even own a bass guitar. But I’m really glad it played out the way it did. I was never going to be a good guitarist, but the bass I sort of took to, and I’ve stayed in that position in every band I’ve ever been in over the next two decades. And as with guitar, I was self-taught. It might be more accurate to say I was taught by Mike Dirnt. Every day after school I would go home and put on Dookie and Insomniac and just play bass along to those albums front to back, using a pick like Mike rather than fingering. This will come as no shock to anyone who’s heard me play. I’ve always sung a little like Bille Joe Armstrong, and played a lot like Mike Dirnt. I still like to soundcheck with his masterful riff from “J.A.R.” Over the years I came into my own a little more, but I think probably my most blatant Mike Dirnt homage can be heard in the opening riff to “Second to Morrissey.”
I had another band or two after Unkle Imp in my early twenties, but thankfully those imploded before we recorded anything.
Capitalist Kids started as a solo project. I had just broken up a band because the drummer was just not good enough. I had songs lying around, and so I got together with my old high school bandmate Dugg, who in the interim had been playing in a thrashy band called Nuclear Addicts. He and I have this rare musical chemistry. He just got it instantly. He has this thing which I have gotten used to over the years, but it was still amazing to me back then, where before I’ve finished playing him a song for the first time, he’s locked in to its essence and can anticipate my next move. It’s great to have that kind of connection in a band. I remember him saying to me, back then in 2004, “I love the Mr. T Experience, but I’m not sure I want to be in a band that sounds like the Mr. T Experience.” Because he had been playing much more hardcore punk. But I’m really glad he decided in the end to come along. It would be hard to overstate Dugg’s influence on the band. From his tastefulness in knowing exactly what to play and what not to play on the drums, to his excellent taste in music and turning me on to artists that would become huge inspirations to me, and that we would end up covering, to his veto power in the early days to decide which of my songs were too cheesy to get behind, he’s definitely shaped the band.
And yes, we all loved MTX, Weasel, Queers, as well as Green Day, Bracket, and Propaghandi. (“We” being myself, Dugg, and guitarist Rawn Hall, who joined the band in 2008 when we moved from Fort Worth to Austin.) But we never meant for the album to be a tribute to other bands. Obviously having the posters on the cover was the furthest thing from hiding our influences, but we thought we were making current music, as opposed to a throwback to ’90s Lookout Records. It was only when people started telling us that we brought back memories of stuff they used to listen to that we realized most people had moved on from the kind of stuff which was still very much our dictionary. Also, Rawn’s style of guitar playing never made me think Lookout Records. It’s very tight, crunchy, heavy. The leads he would play on songs like “Don’t Make Waves” and “Becki2012” are nothing like the single-string major scale leads that bands who are trying to be the Queers and Screeching Weasel play. I thought that was another strength of ours, having Rawn. He has the ability to play this style of lead that works without even having a rhythm guitar under it. Very full. You would think after all these years I would’ve watched him closely enough to figure out how he does it, but I’ve always been content just taking care of the bass.
Capitalist Kids evolved to encompass a more dynamic sound with each release, eventually taking on a more sophisticated flavor. Can you describe this process of evolution, both in terms of your own songwriting and communication among your bandmates?
I guess that would mainly be the combination of a couple things: me stretching my wings a little more over time, and Braden. Braden is our second guitarist, who we added because I wanted us to be able to do a little more guitar-wise (such as be able to do things live that we might double-track in the studio) and to have more vocal harmonies. He joined us after Lessons on Love, Sharing, & Hygiene, so he’s on all the subsequent recordings. When he joined, he was 19 or 20. He was already good, but we had no idea how good he was going to get. Part of the sophistication you mentioned is Braden’s ability to layer really inspired leads over the songs. There’s something to be said for the beefy doubled guitar of our early albums, but a second guitar was a nice addition that allowed us to grow and not repeat ourselves musically.
As far as the evolution of my songwriting, it’s tough for me to analyze. I just cranked out songs, and they eventually got a little better. They got a little less derivative slowly over time, or perhaps they’re at least derivative of enough disparate influences that they add up to something quasi-original. One thing I could say is that I never wanted to repeat myself. I don’t want that to sound pretentious. I’m sure plenty of people would listen to our catalogue and think it all sounds the same. But for me, there is no point in writing a song if it doesn’t do at least one small thing that I haven’t done before. I think we’ve all heard albums where you can tell the band was under pressure to make an album and there are filler songs. That’s never been an issue for us because we’re DIY. So we just write songs, and then when we have a big enough pile, we go record them.
I also earned a little bit of trust from my bandmates over the years, and they in turn loosened up on what they would play. A song like “Bye” or “No. 472” might not have been allowed on our first album. One small thrill for me is that on our latest album I got the guys to play an A7 chord on the prechoruses of “One Weird Trick.” That probably makes that my favorite track on the album, ha ha.
Your songcraft has a very deliberate quality to it, with an emphasis on melody. I also sense a focus on cadence and rhythm in the vocals - which produces a very tight and satisfying result. What are some of the lessons you've learned as a songwriter over time with respect to writing concisely and effectively?
Hey, thanks. It’s always nice for me when someone notices songwriting, because I think most people just respond to how hard a band rips. I am pretty deliberate, I suppose. And absolutely, melody is everything to me. Songwriting is such a strange thing. So often I feel like melodies just come to me, and when they’re strong melodies, I just feel really lucky. I don’t feel like I really did any work to get there. Then maybe I just sculpt the rest of the song around whatever inspiration I had. One thing that can be frustrating is when I get a melody that I have no words for. I used to always start from lyrics. Then for some unknown reason, around the time of at a loss, I started just getting melodies in my head that I liked, and I was like, how the hell am I going to cram lyrics into that? But sometimes at the end of the day, those songs, if they happen to work out, end up being the stronger songs.
As far as conciseness, that’s one thing I’ve always prized. My personal preference, I don’t like listening to a song that goes on and on, so I don’t write mine like that. Never do anything four times that you can just do two times, and so forth. I think that’s one aspect of pop-punk that I’ve always loved. But it goes all the way back to the oldies. “She Loves You” is a masterpiece, and it clocks in at 2 minutes, 20 seconds.
In recent times I gather that you've been playing more guitar and writing power pop songs. What motivated you to go in this direction? Do you have any specific power pop influences that helped you develop this aspect of your songwriting personality? How is the process different from writing a straightforward pop punk song?
This is true, I bought an electric guitar for the first time since I was a teenager. I love when people dance at our shows, so I like to write songs you can tap your toe to. So my songs for the Capitalist Kids have been getting more and more power-poppy over the years. You know, the beat of pop-punk songs can sometimes be a little flat. I try to sneak a tiny bit of swing in there so even if no one in the crowd is really moving to it, I can enjoy myself onstage. But yeah, I just wanted to have a fun project where I could go full clean guitar, and have a shameless amount of organ. (One time Rawn and I were discussing playing around with guitar tones and he said “Yeah, I know if you had your way, we would sound like the Pointed Sticks.” I just smiled and said, wistfully, “Yeah…”.) My dream would be to release something that sounded like Nick Lowe produced it on Stiff Records. I want to wear my Beatles love on my sleeve and have constant three-part harmonies. Some of the tunes for this project (which as of this writing I am calling NITE SOBS) are songs that I’ve had lying around for years that just didn’t fit with Cap Kids. I’m not a real guitar player, so I can’t really create amazing jams like the Exploding Hearts. My original vision was to shoot for a vaguely British Invasion vibe. But the songs are a little all over the place. There’s maybe one that could fit on Shake Some Action Vol. 1, one that could be a pop-punk song until you hit the bridge, a couple retro tunes, a rock song in 6/8 time, and some sort of twee pop. I’ve even got two piano ballads — yikes! I’m sure it will be incredibly unpopular, but it’s fun for me.
Getting back to your question, I don’t think its really a very different process for me; it’s just a slightly different intent. Well, I suppose it is a different process than writing for my other band, because in that band I’m writing with the knowledge that I’m going to be passing guitar duties to the other guys once I have the skeleton of the song written. It’s more collaborative. With this thing, I have to write something that I can play. I bear more responsibility for whether the final product is interesting.
At one point I thought maybe I could take whatever poppier tunes I write to my new band, and try to write a handful of faster, angrier, “punker” songs for the Capitalist Kids, and maybe put out another album that would sound drastically different from Brand Damage. But so far that has not materialized, because I’m just at a point where writing the pop stuff is much more satisfying, and I’m not currently having any inspiration for the angsty songs.
Reflecting on your accomplishments and success with Capitalist Kids, to what extent do you feel that you've made your mark? Are there any specific ambitions that remain with CK and/or your future projects? What is your greatest source of satisfaction as a songwriter? Are there particular people in your life who have acknowledged and given credit for your work (family, friends, fans, etc.)?
I think we made the best album that we could make with Brand Damage, and I’m proud of it. And it’s been cool to see that it was fairly well-received in our niche little world. I always wanted to have one of our records go into a second pressing, and we did that (but only because the first pressing was only 300). They played one of the tracks on NPR, which was neat. Whatever mark we may have made is laughably small in the grand scheme of things, but I’ll take what I can get. You never really have any way of knowing how many people are hearing and/or enjoying your stuff, outside of the occasional e-mail or comment at the merch table. The main thing for me is that I can listen to it over a year after we made it and I still feel like we did a good job. But when other people like it, that’s also very satisfying. So I’m just going to say Brand Damage is my greatest source of satisfaction.
I honestly think we are as successful as we are ever going to be, my singing voice being what it is. We’re just a DIY band; we’re not a business. Our music is not for everybody. I would still love for it to have a chance to be heard by as many fellow weirdos as might potentially be into it, but there’s only so much you can do. As far as ambitions for Cap Kids, we’ve been able to tour America, Canada, UK, and Europe, which is pretty amazing for a dumb little band like ours, but we would still like to get to Japan one day.
Sometimes I will end up hearing for the first time a song that has existed for decades, and it blows me away. And there’s really no way for me to track down the songwriter and say “You did a good thing and I appreciate it! Kudos!” It’s kind of a fun fantasy to think about someone fifty years from now somehow stumbling onto a Cap Kids tune, and saying “Hey, this isn’t bad.” I guess what I’m saying is that we are underappreciated in our own time, and we’ll be vindicated in the future, ha ha.
How do you see your CK songs in the context of modern pop punk? What's your take on the general climate of the current pop punk scene? Are there any particular current bands playing the style that you enjoy listening to? Do you feel that traditional pop punk music is timeless, or will it become increasing irrelevant as people from our generation grow older?
I feel that good songs are timeless, regardless of genre. I’m not too hip to all the pop-punk out there today, but I will say that hands-down the best pop-punk that exists right now is an EP called Cupola by Royal Dog. The only problem is that Royal Dog is not a band, it’s just a guy named Anthony (silent “h”). He was in Who Needs You before that, and Wringer before that. Royal Dog needs to be a band, and they need to put out more music. The EP is amazing.
There is a Italian band called Mega who I think are great. Not dissimilar to the late, great Methadones.
One qualm I have with the current pop-punk scene is that there is way too much auto-tune going on. This may sound hypocritical because we used it on Too Big To Fail(wasn’t our idea), but the fact remains, it needs to stop.
Your father made a career as a comic book artist - how did you perceive his work when you were growing up? Do you see any similarities between your father and yourself with respect to creative drive, talent, etc.? What does he think of your songs and what you've accomplished with music? Have you considered hiring him to do an album cover?
I looked up to my pop (Kerry Gammill) as a kid, and I definitely tried to find some sort of career as an artist. I got an associates degree in animation once. Now I just do graphic design. I could never be an illustrator like him. He told me once that he enjoyed “Let’s Go Waterboarding” and thought it was clever. I did try to get him to do an album cover, but he could never find the time. I suspect he also didn’t want to necessarily be associated with some of our politics, ha ha.
Have you considered or tried writing songs in different genres of rock - for example heavy metal? Do you ever engage in songwriting challenges or exercises to help develop your repertoire? Do you feel that your songwriting tool kit could expand into other styles of music, like rap?
Metal, no; doesn’t appeal to me. You have to remember that the number one thing for me is melody. If I was going to branch out it would sooner be something like writing songs for a Broadway musical (and I don’t mean the Green Day kind; I mean like straight up Little Shop of Horrors or something.) The only thing I do to develop my repertoire is any time I hear a song that is better than anything I could write, I try to learn how to play it. The hope being that some of the genius of it will be absorbed into me over time.
Believe it or not, I did record little rap songs when I lived with my brother many years ago. Lyrics and rhymes obviously do transfer over. But hip hop is not my passion or my calling, ha ha. My brother Steveo still raps occasionally.
When you listen to music, do you find yourself analyzing structure and form more now than when you were younger? Do you "study" songs in order to achieve a higher level of compositional competence?
Hey, look, I accidentally answered this question with my last response! I do analyze form a little more, but it’s not a case of Mark Twain becoming disillusioned with the wonder of the Mississippi River or anything. Music is still magic to me. When I hear a great song, I still hear the overall effect of it more than seeing every little gear underneath it. It’s usually only after I learn the chords that I feel like I’ve seen behind the curtain.
You have cited Dr. Frank as an influence - how would you describe his specific impact on you as a songwriter? What lessons have you gained from his craft? Was his example partially what inspired you to pursue a more sophisticated sound?
Yes, Dr. Frank was obviously a gigantic influence on me. Most notably his clever compound rhymes, but also top-notch melodies. He is one of the only people around to whom the term “craft” actually applies. His songs are brilliantly crafted and meticulously sculpted into perfection, like a little Cole Porter tune except it makes you want to pogo around and spill beer everywhere. Probably hearing someone sing lyrics that were not abstract in any way, but were still very meaty and interesting and clever and fun, impacted me in a huge way in my formative years.
I told this story recently on a podcast, and it might come off like bragging, but fuck it, I’m going to tell it again because I think it’s funny. The Capitalist Kids had the honor a while back of opening for the Mr. T Experience in San Antonio, and Dr. Frank really dug our set. Afterwards he said to me “You guys have really good songs, and that’s not something you see that often.” I managed to spurt out “Well, you know MTX is like my favorite band of all time,” and Frank says “Well, maybe that’s why I like it.”
What's next for you creatively and musically? What advice might you give to aspiring songwriters? Can you share any lessons learned from past mistakes or shifts in perspective that have helped you grow as an artist?
Man, I’m honored that you would bother to interview me in the same series as Kim freaking Shattuck, but the idea that I’m on a level to be giving advice to aspiring songwriters… that might be too much of a stretch for me. Don’t quit your day jobs. There’s no money to be made unless you’re trying to write something to be used in an Apple commercial or something, so you better just be doing it because you’re passionate about it. Make your songs shorter. Learn some music theory. (I never did, so you’ll have a big leg up on me.) Don’t be like me—learn more chords. They will open up more possibilities for different melodies. There are an infinite number of other bands out there, so just try your best not to be generic and boring, but if you’re just starting out you might have to just keep doing it and doing it before you find your voice. It took me about 13 years of constant output to get to songs that I think are good—and even those most people don’t have any use for, so be prepared for a lot of apathy. Listen to They Might Be Giants, then cry because you can never write anything half as good as John Linnell as long as you live, then wipe your tears and write something for yourself anyway. Don’t try to be cool. Just do you.
What’s next for me is to keep writing until I run out of chord progressions. Cheers!
